oppo, I think I've hit a wall in the game of life...

"ToyDeathbot" (ToyDeathbot) 06/11/2014 at 10:02 • Filed to: advice

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I'm currently studying engineering (haven't chosen what discipline to go on with yet) and I feel that something's just not...right. I like the whole idea of being a professional engineer, but really I'm just pretty mediocre at maths and physics (I narrowly managed to get into engineering) and I have a gut feeling that I won't get that far in my degree even though I can tolerate and work through the stuff that I don't really like.

And now, I seem kinda lost.

My alternative has always been to go and do architecture or industrial design, but all I've got on my side is some technical drawing left over from high school (I got a solid A in my last year) and absolutely no experience in art, which is considered really important for portfolios.

What should I do? Carry on with engineering? Changed to design? Go do a gap year because I sound like a stressed out mess?

Have some VTEC for listening to my completely boring life story.

Diesel > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:05

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Industrial Design. Definitely what I would do.

yamahog > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:05

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If it makes you feel any better, there really is not that much actual math and physics in your typical day-to-day engineering job.

mcseanerson > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:05

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Architecture is six years plus internship if you're serious about it and also requires the maths. Keep that in mind.

Hermann > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:09

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I'm also studying engineering (going mechanical). And believe me: It gets better. It seems slow, but it isn't. You're slowly being dragged into this. It's subtle. You think you're learning mediocre physics but you're not. You're being trained to use logic to solve increasingly complex problems.

God I love engineering.

Try joining a project of some sort. Does your university have a Formula SAE car? Aero? Anyway... try finding real world problems to solve. You'll see that you'll be able to put these mediocre physics to use. And you'll know how to use them. It'll actually make things clearer to understand (wrenching is learning!).

If you still want to go to design, I'd suggest finishing engineering and THEN put design on top of that.

Edit: Also, my wife's a Civ. Engineer. She considered Architecture but didn't go that route. She doesn't regret it. Architecture also has math and physics, but it's nowhere near. It's also a discipline I'd put on top of an engineering degree.

spanfucker retire bitch > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:10

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I felt the same way after my first year at UB when studying for Engineering. Transferred to a different school and took Drafting as my major.

It's up to you on what you want to do, but I love my job. Definitely a good choice for me. I don't get paid anywhere near that of an Engineer, but I don't hate getting up in the morning either.

Nibbles > yamahog 06/11/2014 at 10:11

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This. In my experience, your average engineer's daily tasks generally revolve around seeing if you can break your computer or printer in a way the IT guy can't fix ;)

Must be some sort of unspoken competition or something

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:11

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I have some friends that felt like you, or at least that's what it feels like and they ended up studying engineering management, rather than full on engineering. Perhaps this is an option to look into? I know at least one of them currently has a great job at Whirlpool.

GhostZ > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:15

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How far along are you in education? If you're still in college, there's plenty of time to get experience through an internship.

roflcopter > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:22

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Well, I can't really tell you what is right for you to do, but what I can do is alleviate some of your concerns with engineering. I'll preface this with the fact that I'm currently a junior going for a double major in EE and CE.

Almost every person I know who is either working on or has finished an engineering degree has failed a class or three, it's bound to happen. The subject matter is hard, the professors don't always have their heads on straight. It's not the end of the world and honestly there are a few classes I think you should be required to take twice(ha!). Even after 3+ years of taking math and physics there are some concepts I am JUST NOW starting to understand. You might think of Calc II as being the definitive math class, but the truth is that you learn the words, but haven't learned how to make coherent sentences yet. Univ Phys II and Circuits I finally taught me how to use all that math and it made a lot more sense, so don't get discouraged because you aren't wrapping your head around it yet. The classes that you get into once you decide what branch of engineering you want to be in are infinitely more interesting than the gen ed math and physics classes you're probably dealing with now. It'll become something you WANT to learn more about and it'll give you more chances to nail down those concepts you don't quite get. Digital Circuit Design, Microprocessors, and Circuits II really did that for me, renewed my interest and made me feel like I was really learning something.

Now, with all of that said, the biggest thing to getting through an engineering degree is DON'T DO IT ALONE. The professors are more than willing to help you when you don't understand something, ask in class, go to their office hours. I actually have one professor that agreed to have an extra class meeting a week this summer because enough students wanted a bit more help. Besides the professors, a lot of schools have free tutors in the engineering departments for the Calc trio and Physics classes and the one thing you should never overlook is getting together with classmates to work through homework or study, explaining things you understand will significantly help you understand them better and may shed light on other concepts you don't get, and they'll be there to help you through the stuff that makes sense to them.

I spend my first 2 years struggling on my own because I'm not someone who ever studied much or thought I needed help, but after deciding to use what was at my disposal it not only became a lot easier, but also a lot more enjoyable. I hope everything works out for you, and if you like the idea of that path, then I wholeheartedly recommend continuing.

E92M3 > yamahog 06/11/2014 at 10:22

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This! Unfortunately a lot of engineering jobs today are nothing more than taking an existing set of autocad schematics and changing a few things.

Roadster Man > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:23

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Take a year off and think about it. If it helps, the universal reality is this:

Tests have no bearing on how you fare in school, and school has no bearing on how you fare in real life. So if you aren't doing too hot in school, don't let that keep you from pursuing a career.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:31

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I did 2 years of engineering, finally accepted that I hated it, and left that school. I did another year at a community college, then two years at a state school for business. I just graduated a month ago. It's not an engineering degree, I'll tell you that much. If you really, truly can't stand it, switch majors. If that's not possible (the school I was going to had literally one non-engineering major), transfer to another school. DO NOT TAKE A YEAR OFF, YOU WILL NOT GO BACK. Statistics, studies, and my own anecdotal tales all show that a "year off" becomes "never going back".

willkinton247 > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:34

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Actually, you sound exactly like me my freshman year. I loved the idea of being an engineer, but I hated the programming and math that was required for it.

I also looked at architecture. Unfortunately, the problem with architecture is that it's usually a 5 year program, followed by an internship of a couple of years. That last part is particularly tricky because the architect job market is minuscule. I know quite a few architects who massively struggled to find entry level jobs.

I ended up doing urban affairs and planning, and I really enjoyed it. It's kind of a light mix of landscape architecture and civil engineering, with the idea that you are the person who is coordinating the two. You need to have some understanding of design and some understanding of engineering, but you don't need to be an absolute expert in both.

Caspian Kilkelly > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:41

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I'm not an engineer. A large number of my friends are, or have studied it, and from the outside (with an extra 15 years on you in terms of experience), getting in to it is a process.
The nice part is that you've got time. I know people who didn't start their engineering careers until they were in their 30s because they got math or physics degrees first. I also know people who dropped out of engineering to do something else like math, physics, or applied computational science (she's a professor now, with an MFA in electroaccoustic music and design, and PhD in math, or something).

Just remember that you ALWAYS have the option of changing your mind, doing something else, etcetera... but it's easier to do it once you've finished what you started.

If you like buildings and architecture, go the Civil route. If you want to build robots, microprocessors, high-voltage power transmission systems, etcetera, go the electrical route. If you're not sure what you want, then focus on the mechanics and systematic stuff- it applies to areas you haven't even thought of (like human movement, computer science, weather, large-scale system failure).

Somebody in this thread said you should join a project- I agree. Not because it'll make you a better engineer, but because it'll let you know what you like. A really close friend did that when he started at McGill. He dropped out of the first project, but realized that he liked some of the aspects of it, and moved into a robotics project. By the end of his undergrad, he was teaching the grad students about robotics. He stayed with the research group, and ended up spinning the project he was on into his full time job (after doing an M.eng). It was still hard. I don't know anybody who has gone through engineering who hasn't questioned why they were there, or what they were doing. I think this is part of the purpose of universities and colleges- it gives you a little time to figure out what you want before you go make a life for yourself.

mcseanerson > yamahog 06/11/2014 at 10:42

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Like what is your capability of staying awake during bs meetings that make up 75 percent of your day?

505 - morphine not found > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 10:44

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The jalop thing to do would probably be getting a year off and working in workshops - auto or other - through that to see if you can get a hold of it again, holding it in your hands.

But never knew the next thing about engineering, and didn't take a year off ever in my studies, so i'm probably not the one to listen to.

miadaman? yes please > yamahog 06/11/2014 at 10:52

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So true, in big established companies you are most likely going to be working with a standard library that some "genius" put together decades ago. Technical or not you'll be chewing on standards, codes and catalogs for the better part of the job that sometimes I wonder if I applied to become a librarian.

Smaller company or rnd departments are another story though.

bob and john > roflcopter 06/11/2014 at 10:59

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this. all my this

I'm pretty much in the same situation as OP, and I failed my first year. going back to try it again, but dam, if it didnt rattle me a bit

f86sabre > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 11:02

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Getting an engineering degree is a grind. When it is done there are a lot of doors open. The industry is fun and there are jobs. You just have to get through it. It got my degree in 1998. I failed some classes. It happens. I have a great job doing cool stuff so no complaints.

tromoly > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 11:07

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Work with a bunch of different groups, if you have FSAE, Human Powered Vehicle, Eco Marathon, etc. to get an idea of what it's all about.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > E92M3 06/11/2014 at 11:08

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You're confusing engineering with drafting. The drafters deal with the Autocad stuff. Engineers just take the print and show the production people what dimension they need to worry about. We're people persons.

roflcopter > bob and john 06/11/2014 at 11:08

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It definitely will. I failed Calc II the first time through and thought my life was over. Turns out my parents weren't even mad, I saw probably 4 or 5 other students in the class with me again the next semester, and I realized that I wasn't any different from every other student going through the grinder.

jesuschrysler-geo-cpt-planet > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 11:10

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Technical sales is an interesting option for an engineer. Working on multiple engineering projects from a high level at all times while managing contracts, pricing, marketing, customer service, etc. Every day is different and you don't have to talk to all the same people everyday and see the same things. It is also a good launch off point to take other jobs and move up in the company if you want to because you touch every aspect of your company and your customer's so you also have options.

bob and john > roflcopter 06/11/2014 at 11:15

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failing one class is one thing. I only get 2 courses with a mark above a 60%. 6 courses failed out of 12, I think. I was seriously considering jumping the border to the US and just working some dead end job to stay alive and leave my friends and fam behind...

turns out, parents just said: ok, u learned ur lesson the hard way. have back at 'em. Dont game so much next time.


HUGE weight off my shoulders.....

TheNeonDriver - Now with More BMW! > bob and john 06/11/2014 at 11:21

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I was one of only guys in my house who didn't fail at least one class. Engineering is tough because of the constant assignment loads, and the density of the material.

I hear you when it comes to Math, I got a D in both Calc I and Calc II in first year. But I pulled through it, and now I work for a large consulting firm doing HVAC. We do math, but noting more then basic calculus at the worst, and even then, it's atypical.

I will say this, I know and work with many architects, and it's another very stressful school life. In Canada anyway, if they want to become professionals, they have to complete a masters degree in architecture (after finishing a bachelor), and then complete 2 years of very defined experience, with a mentor. Not saying it's not worth it, just saying it's also not just drawing, presenting, drinking wine, and acting like a snob.

Industrial design always appealed to me, but I can't draw, so that was out.

The thing about engineering is, that it is such a large field, and your job opportunities are almost endless. It really is one of the only fields that you could be working 1000' underground one day, and then working on a space ship the next (unless your Bruce Willis).

My suggestion, get a good group of people to study and work with, and it makes school not only bearable, but enjoyable.

Hope that ramble helps,

Mr. StreetRolledTechnology, EIT.

roflcopter > bob and john 06/11/2014 at 11:36

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I was the kind of kid that skated his way through highschool and I can't even remember studying for a test once. Ended up in the Honors program at my university and that first semester definitely hit hard. It's a completely different game. Isn't it amazing how much time people in less strenuous degrees have to party? I found out trying to keep up just doesn't work.

ToyDeathbot > tromoly 06/11/2014 at 15:40

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we've only got an FSAE group and I got rejected because it was way too full. I'm gonna try again next year though!

sketchcat > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 16:12

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I'm an Industrial Designer. Got my BS ID in 1994. Currently working for a large american corporation in a team of four whom are scattered across California and Asia.

Some bullet points about becoming and being an "Industrial Design guy":

Attend an accredited school that has a robust co-op/internship program. My alma mater was garbage and my career has alway been at least one step behind my contemporaries in terms of position & pay.

there are sub cultures of designers, Automotive guys are quite a small and insular clan. over time your career and passions will find you following paths such as housewares, consumer electronics, outdoor/sport equip, etc.

Industrial Design also is NOT just sketching/rendering. ID is a problem solving process that involves research like using current products and determining how they fall short, and even creepily watching and recording people using products and discovering things about them that slow them, frustrate them, and make their experience with a product less than ideal.

Industrial Design require you to know very well the processes of manufacturing. Machining, forming, molding etc.

The field is competitive, real artistic talent is a must and Design schools will vette whatever work you have compiled into a portfolio even before you are admitted. During your school years you will be reviewed and people will be washed out leaving them moving into other graphic fields.

again, co-ops and internships are hugely important. this is where you make your contacts and get that important first staff position.

Cad skills are a must, they will keep you in a position while just "art guys" get laid off. being an expert at surfacing in 3d CAD packages is a life saver, Photoshop and Illustrator will also be daily tools.

Be prepared to relocate OFTEN as you move from job to job. The profession is sorting itself out into geographic locations, specifically metro areas. consultancies and corporates are clustered in cities. this makes living where YOU want to live hard, Im 120 miles from SF and the bay area and that gravitational pull has pulled all but the heartiest professionals out of the rest of northern california.

Plan on going to graduate school at some point. I couldn't find a MS ID close by attend so I got an MBA. not a bad move, but teaching is out for me.

NETWORK! get into the student chapters of the IDSA and make it work for you. when in between jobs, pulling sub contracting $$ is how to stay alive.

Since its a creative profession you will meet and work with some interesting creatures. there are the uber hipster art greenies out there in droves, but you will also find that all ID people have a vein of gearhead in them to varying degrees. Only if you work for and channel yourself into a path of "great art for art sake type" environments will you be surrounded by the most extreme examples of "art types"

STUDY up on and familiarize yourself with the history of the profession: Lowey, Dreyfuss, Rams, Moggridge, et al.

Study and understand that Industrial design is a VERY misunderstood profession, There are many attitudes toward it by the public and Corporate america, understand that you and your role will be misunderstood by the people that work with you in the corporate word and as a result you will sometimes find frustration because of that, especially if you have internalized what industrial design can bring to an organization.

—

My career path has traveled both sides of the line between Mechanical engineering and Industrial design. My resume has just as many entries on it of Mechanical designer as Industrial designer, this has put me in positions with real R&D type groups and as a result has kept me afloat and working in depth on products.

good links:

http://www.core77.com/

http://www.idsa.org/what-industria…

tromoly > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 16:22

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Do it, at the very least if you get rejected ask if you could be a "fly-on'the'wall" during meetings and manufacturing and stuff, not necessarily help but just be there.

ToyDeathbot > sketchcat 06/11/2014 at 18:52

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Wow! Thanks for writing so much about your job!

The course that I've done in high school actually focused heavily on manufacturing processes (in particular, plastics, metals and woodworking) and some isometric/orthographic drawings. The problem is that universities here are fairly small and have a tendency to pick people with amazing art-filled portfolios, which I have none of.

Just out of interest, do you think it's worth pursuing a design degree to supplement an engineering degree?

ToyDeathbot > GhostZ 06/11/2014 at 18:55

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it's my first year, but I'm thinking of dropping out before it's too late!

I've heard stories of people in 3 or 4 year who've absolutely lost interest in their degrees and it scares me a bit

GhostZ > ToyDeathbot 06/11/2014 at 20:18

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No one really chooses what degree they are going to earn until year 3 or 4 anyway. Your FIRST problem was committing to "engineering" in year 1.

Don't drop out, just take classes that are outside of engineering that play to what you do like, and your talents. Focus less on "what homework do I want to do" and more on "if I could have any job, what would it be? Now how do I get it? And am I willing to do that?" Knowledge is power, and power is necessary to make decisions that positively affect your life.

If anything, take some time out of your day to sit in on classes (so you don't have to actually enroll) and shadow them to learn more about different jobs. Talk to professors outside of your major.

As for experience, you're 1 year into college. You should NOT be concerned about how much experience you have, if you want to do architecture, then sit in on a few classes (both high level and low level) test it out, read up on what it takes and what the jobs are like. If it looks like you can both enjoy it AND come out ahead enough to do it well, then start taking design classes now, don't fuck up and get behind, get good recommendations, see if you can visit any local design businesses (if you're in a city like Chicago or New York, that's extremely easy) to get your foot in the door, ace an interview for an internship a few years down the row and BAM you're working for a industrial design firm. Lack of experience won't hold you back, but lack of knowledge or decisiveness will.

It's about focus and discipline, maintaining that power that knowledge gives you. Without that, you're going to be stressed.

School should never stress you out, trust me, I go to a university where there's a dedicated on-campus group for "perfectionists" who stress out too much because they're succeeding, and this group is larger than some of the sports teams. At the end of the day, college is a 4 year purchase you make so that for the rest of your life, you can impress people easier, you can act faster, work harder, and become a generally more efficient and capable person who can get what they want without risking yourself over it. If you spend your 4 years focusing on homework , which is largely the least important part of college, you're going to have a lot rougher time later on in life.

sketchcat > ToyDeathbot 06/12/2014 at 04:07

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If you get an Industrial Designer talking about Industrial design, its hard to shut us up. sorry.

Regarding what you have as a portfolio:

its worth being concerned about and taken seriously, but admissions people understand that High schools don't ask much of students. Any admissions person will be looking for and be able to understand you have the basics:

you can draw efficiently and convincingly.

you have creative thoughts behind what you draw.

The ability to draw and sketch convincingly includes the art work not looking overly labored and over done. two people can draw the same thing well, however if you've done it quickly and with "economy" ( less lines, shading etc.) that's the person that shows a real connection with what their eye or mind sees and how efficiently their hands can translate that to paper.

keep it simple if you wnat to fatten you admissions "book" get a comfrotable sized sketchbook with wire binding, and a pencil, sharpener, and and a fat eraser. and just crank away. you will be taining your hand/eye.

Id hire a guy with a stunning sketchbook of nothing but pencil sketches even if that's all he had.

That said: don't think for a moment that a professional designers sketchpad that he totes around is 100% perfect sketches, everybody's sketchbooks are chock full of garbage, but as bad as those scribbles my be they represent a thought that needed to be captured at that moment.

I know and contract this guy, hes really cool and i cont touch his efficiency. but when you practice the craft of sketching like he doeas your hands learn to move on their own. http://www.sketch-a-day.com/

Most curriculum will have you taking classes like typography, and graphic design in your early years. you will also be put into FINE ARTS classes like life drawing. where you set up easels, draw in charcoal and stare at naked ugly butts and boobs three times a week. Ive seen some hippie bush that i care not speak of. You young guys may have models that are more neatly groomed.

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Double major?

yikes.

I spent many many long nights in the studio sketching, marker rendering, building models! its a TIME demanding thing to study. pile that on top of an ME degree that often has you in the lab at night for some classes...

im not sure if you would get any sleep for four years, much less get laid.

Granted, LAte night in the Studio was fantastic as a social experience. from rocking out the empty building with our stereos, smoking the occasional J in the maintenance closet, and other insanity. Those late nights were just as fun as being out at the bars, and often bar nights were started and capped off in teh studio.

—-

do some research.

find the passion that you will need to keep you up all night finishing art and models for reviews the next morning.

and have that passion keep you mentally steady as your work get shredded in critiques by professors and sometimes student reviewers. being thin skinned will make life miserable.

if you can find it you will do just fine.

Best of luck in your journey.

brakesnow > vdub_nut: scooter snob 06/13/2014 at 15:27

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Good advice but I would disagree against explicitly avoiding taking a year off. Feel free to take a year off, but don't think of it as a vacation. Think of it as a chance to keep learning but in a very different way. Find a job/internship and exploit every opportunity that comes your way, make connections, meet people, dont sit still. If you spend the year sitting on the couch playing XBOX you will learn nothing and destroy your work ethic.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > brakesnow 06/14/2014 at 00:28

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I agree. However, the temptation to work at tasty-freez and blow your paychecks on iphones and COD remakes is mighty tempting. I was only advising otherwise based on my personal experience (of wanting to tell college to fuck off permanently) and statistics (which do not favor those who take a year off).

I know where you're coming from, but I made (in my original post) the assumption (ASS, you, me, etc) that OP is like ~90% of Americans, and loves the lazy, simple, easy way. I merely posted from my own POV.